A Conversation About Cemeteries, Death, and the Viability of Cemeteries as a Third Place: Part 1

The interview below is part one of a conversation with my friend, Jenna Haines. This article covers the "cemeteries" portion of our discussion.

So first, I'd like to discuss your background and relationship to the cemetery. I remember sharing this with you in the past, but in a lecture in 1961, the German philosopher Heidegger was asked about how we should better lead our lives, and his response was "we should simply aim to spend more time in graveyards." And you're the only person I know who does this recreationally.

[Laughter]

So kudos to you.

Yes, I guess I'm getting that right! [Laughter]

Where did you get the idea to first visit the cemetery recreationally?

I was thinking about this because I don't even really know, but I think it's sort of a thing that we did as a family. For example, my grandparents live in Savannah. And so we went to—I was probably in high school—we went to Bonaventure because it's a beautiful cemetery, very historic. There's these huge, beautiful old live oak trees there. There's thousands of graves that are, you know, civil war soldiers, all sorts of things.

So that was kind of like a… we would go and have a picnic cause certain cemeteries are almost like public parks, you know? So there's picnic tables or whatever for people to enjoy themselves. So we went there and had lunch and then we'd just walk around. It's a good place to have a nice walk, you know? And then we would look at the graves, and sometimes, we would recognize a name. "Oh, that's so-and-so whatever civil war general or that's..." you know, historically we would recognize names.

And then I went to Paris in 2018 (I think) with my dad, and he's been there over 200 times, so he's basically a local. And anyways, he took me to the Posse cemetery, and that's where Bertha Morisot is buried. And then, Manet is buried there and… anyways, some notable impressionist painters. And so my dad took me there to see the impressionist painters' graves because I like impressionism, and he does too. And so, that was one of the first things we did when we went to Paris. So I think it's just a thing that we did in our family.

And very occasionally, it wasn't a thing we did often, but then I moved to Atlanta from the suburbs—moved to the city—and there's like not many good places to run that's safe for a woman, especially in the evening. Cause that was around golden hour—part of the evening. And so, I lived over by the Decatur cemetery, and so, I would go over there and run, and it's kind of nestled into a neighborhood. So there's all these beautiful homes, and then you go along this long pathway and up and around the corner and then you enter this sprawling cemetery, and it's got this beautiful gazebo that you can sit in. Anyway, it was a great, great running route.

So I went there and then I moved to West Midtown, and they have a beautiful cemetery there—Crestlawn. And I actually moved right across from it. So just happenstance, not on purpose. And so that was my new running route because where I lived in West Midtown, everything was industrial. I mean, there's like a Coca-Cola plant right there. There's like, it's just like factories and warehouses and then like a five-lane road. So I can't run along that. It's not really safe, but it's not like scenic. So that's why I would run in the cemetery. So that's kind of where that evolved.

Gotcha. It sounds a bit Southern Gothic. Is that a common thing in Savannah for people to check out old gravestones or is that more specific to your family?

I don't know. I was wondering that too. Like the cemetery in Paris is so, so old. I wonder when the oldest grave is there, but I wonder if like, that's not a cultural thing that they ever do, you know?

Yeah.

I don't know if that's even a touristy thing either, you know? But yeah, it's in Savannah. I can't speak to either, but, and then, so yeah, it kind of started from that and then evolved into where I would run. And then it was just such a peaceful place where I was unbothered in the hubbub of the city that I'd go there just to get some quiet time. So I'd go there and I'd write, or that's where I wrote all my poems that I published at Georgia Tech—was in the Decatur Cemetery. And then I would just do some sketching, like whatever, just to get away and clear my mind.

So almost, in a way, it's not an anti-third place, but you're not going there to meet people. You're going to get away from all the busyness in a way.

Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. But I mean, I've brought people there. So it's been a place that I've enjoyed with others as well.

That's cool. Yeah. Speaking of touristy ones, the only ones I can think of are like... I've been to the Benjamin Franklin tombstone in Philadelphia, as well as in Boston, there are Samuel Adams and Paul Revere. And I guess that's more of a historical thing, like "take a selfie and move on" [laughter]. But that's still neat regardless, like even in France.

Yeah! 100%. And I have stipulations as well. Like I'm not going to go to any old place, any old cemetery, like I'm not trying to go there to be, you know, "edgy" or "have a spooky time." It's mostly just... I like to go to the ones that feel very well maintained, very much like a park and not spooky, you know? Like the ones you see on the side of the road that are like 50 graves, you know, like that—I'm not interested in that.

Yeah, that's fair. So speaking of, do you prefer cemeteries or graveyards?

I don't really know the difference.

From what I know, graveyards are next to churches and cemeteries are standalone. Like they're not next to a church per se.

Then cemeteries. Yeah.

OK, cool. So you said that you started visiting them recreationally with your family in Savannah growing up, and then it's kind of scattered with trips to, I guess, France and then just moving around Atlanta. So it kind of started for as long as you could remember, you'd say?

Kind of. I mean, it wasn't a thing we did often as a family. I'll be clear about that [both laughing].

We've been to the Venture once. So it's not… it wasn't a thing. And that's actually the only cemetery I've been in that I was like... I felt very uneasy in, even though it's very beautiful. It gave me such a bad feeling in my stomach. So I don't want to go back there. But yeah, I don't know… I mean… like I don't really… I guess it… I was familiar with it from going on a couple of visits with my dad to different cemeteries. But it kind of really started for me when I moved to the city. That's probably what I would say.

Neat. How often do you go these days?

Not very often because I moved away from the city. So now, I don't have the same feelings about needing to go there to get a respite. But my fiancé actually lived across from Crestlawn in a different apartment, and he just moved away from there like two weeks ago. So I was going there often with him to go for a run or to go for a walk. But now I'm not. So it was like, I don't know, weekly maybe.

Okay. So it kind of comes in and out of your life in a way.

Mhmm [in agreement].

Gotcha. And so you would sometimes frequent the same cemetery if it was part of some routine. But otherwise, you don't necessarily seek out new cemeteries. It's more like you happen to pass by something. Is that right?

Yeah, it would more so be part of my routine. But I'm not explorative, really, for new cemeteries.

Gotcha. So besides, I guess, the people that you would bring to the cemetery or like invite with you, do you know of anyone else who also enjoys spending their time in cemeteries? 

My dad [laughter]. My dad travels the world for his job, and so he's very… he loves, loves, loves history. And he has kind of an affinity for people's lifespans and the history behind what they do. But he's very… he has kind of this obsession with like, "how long did they live and what did they die from?" And "where are they buried?" And so because of that, he'll visit… people's… graves, if they're like notable to him, you know?

I mean, it kind of reminds me of Hunter S. Thompson, who killed himself, mainly because he was starting to reach that age where he was getting a lot more illnesses.

Mmhmm.

And I think he was in his late 60s or sometime in the 60s, but he realized "I don't want to be some 80-year-old person who can't walk around" or whatever. And he also had seasonal depression. So… and he loved football. So it was like after the football season when it was just cold in February and nothing to do.

But his ashes were cremated, turned into a bowling ball and then shot out of a cannon. So…

Oh my gosh!

Your dad would love that if he doesn't already know that one.

Yeah! That is such a wild story. Yeah, my dad would be interested in that for sure.

Yeah. Are there any that… does your dad have a favorite?

No, I think it's more so like… how Grover Cleveland died from this... that crazy, like throat tumor or something like that, you know? Just things like that, where it's like a medical anomaly or who also is a person of significance, or like, oh, you know, "this specific military general died from this crazy shrapnel explosion blah, blah, blah." I don't know. Like things like that.

Something eventful.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And then or also, you know, "oh, this person died really young" or whatever. I mean, my dad's just interested in learning, so he doesn't really have specifics with that.

Yeah. So in the times when you would invite someone to go to the cemetery with you, whether maybe for a run or maybe to just talk or, I don't know, write poetry or whatever else, what was their initial reaction to it? Was it like, "yeah, sure, let's go." Or was it some other reaction of apprehension or trepidation?

No, I never felt that. I never felt apprehension. I think the only time that I felt that maybe was I asked my sister to come with me. And I think she was a little like, "oh, what are we going to do there? [nervous voice]" Like, "what's there to do? [nervous voice]" And I just explained to her, "no, it's basically like a public park. You know, it's a beautiful place where you can just have like a nice long walk, you know?" Yeah. But apart from that, no. I mean—I've taken friends and, one of my early, earliest dates with my fiancé was there, and he didn't have any, like… he didn't… I mean, I've asked him. He didn't seem to have any qualms but he could have been hiding that from me [laughing].

Does he have a good poker face?

Yeah… [both laughing]

So maybe, maybe a little nervous, but just rolling with it?

Yeah, maybe that's true. But no, I mean, surprisingly, it feels like no.

Cool. So when you're there, you said it's a mix of exercising or going there for quiet time away from the city. A good amount of creativity, I suppose, with writing poetry. Anything else that you do there? Or that kind of sums it up… reading, maybe?

I have picnics.

Nice.

It's a good spot to picnic, but that's about it, really.

Yeah. And you always go there, I guess, during the daytime?

Mhmm.

Yeah. Never at nighttime. Makes sense.

Nah, the most nighttime would be golden hour. 👊

Jenna Haines is a seamstress and fashion designer based out of Atlanta. You can find her work at jennahaines.com.