A Conversation About Cemeteries, Death, and the Viability of Cemeteries as a Third Place: Part 2

The interview below is part two of a conversation with my friend, Jenna Haines. This article covers the "death" portion of our discussion. (Check out part one if you haven't already!)

So now, let's shift gears and discuss the most obvious point of cemeteries, that being death. I know we've talked about how near death experiences will make people live differently afterwards, usually with more purpose and vigor. Do you think that being in a cemetery where one is in a quite literal sense, "near death," a way of gently exercising that sentiment?

I don't think I think about that consciously, but maybe subconsciously. It feels like… I don't know. It's just kind of like… it's interesting to be around so many lives who have lived and you had no concept of them, and they had no concept of you. And I like to see their born date and death date and see like, "what kind of inventions were around at that time? What was the day-to-day like?" You know, and how different life is now. But I don't know… I mean… I think maybe subconsciously there is an aspect of that.

I mean, in a way, it's sort of like the Latin expression, "memento mori."

Mhmm.

I guess that's the one thing that unites us all.

Yeah. Death and taxes, as they say.

Right. And you mentioned to me in the past that you were sick as a child, and you had to spend a good deal of time in the hospital. Do you think that experience of being sick as a child and staying in the hospital sort of informed—maybe later on—a decision to spend time in cemeteries, even at a subconscious level?

Maybe that's why I'm not freaked out at all by them, except for that one instance in Savannah. Because I'm not afraid of death… because I had so many issues as a child.. and so I'm more so very present in every moment in my life because I know that my life is so fleeting.

And so, I think that's why I'm not creeped out, because it's just… I mean, it's just a fact of life. You know, all these people lived, and all these people died, and I'm here enjoying this space that's been created around their life.

So I think it's a very interesting comparison or parallel, I guess. And I've never thought about it like that. So I appreciate that you drew that because now I'll have to think more about that.

Yeah, for sure. Has the act of visiting the cemetery and spending time there also altered your perception of death? You said you don't have any fear of it. Is that something that has changed over time where you're now more desensitized to death as this ultimate fatality, or is it like, "No, it's happens to everyone; it happened to all these people" [cavalier tone]?

Yeah, I think it's more so just like, "it's just a fact of life. It will happen to us all." And hopefully, we go in a way that's not extremely traumatic and painful. But at the end of the day, we're all going to end up, you know, not here anymore. So we might as well make it great while we're here and enjoy every part of it.

Speaking of traumatic and painful, have you thought about how you'd want to die? [Both laughing]

I think I'd like to die… I don't know, I mean… I think I'd like to die like we all would like to die—at an old age in bed and just not wake up. I think there's… a lot of people have interesting responses to that, actually, because some people are… like my fiancé's dad is like, "when I get really old, when I'm going to have to start requiring a lot of medical help, just take me on the top of a mountain in Salt Lake City and just push me off on skis."

I don't have a funny or great response to that, except for that I would just like to die peacefully with… with a long life, really.

That's fair. So, to what extent has the time you spent in cemeteries affected the way you prepare for your own inevitable death? 

…

Like you told me a few years ago, you wrote your own will?

Oh [laughter], Oh my God! That's so funny that you remember that! What's wrong with me, John!? [laughter]

I don't think there's anything… I mean, that's just a normal response. It's like, you know, we don't take anything with us. It has to go somewhere. 

[Both laughing] I know but… I was probably like 21 when I told you that [laughter]. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think… I think it's just like... when you're 10 years old, and you're faced so closely with death, you just kind of think about those things now, you know?

And so, I think that's why I was… plus I'm very much attached to my things. So I need my things to go to a good home [laughter]. I'm a collector of antiques, so I don't want those things to just go to Goodwill, you know, where they're like beautiful, once in a lifetime pieces of furniture [laughter].

But anyways, I think it's just when you're in a cemetery and you see all these people who have died and… like I said, I look at their lifespan timeline, and I see these women who died at, you know, 20 and then their baby's grave is right next to them… that was less than a day old because they died in childbirth. And it's like, it's amazing that we have the technology we have now where some of these people died from crazy illnesses or not so crazy really like the flu, which I know is crazy. But anyways, whereas it's not as deadly for us now, or childbirth where it's not as much of a constant concern as it was back then.

And so I think that's interesting to look at and see, you know, we're so lucky now that we have the privilege of living longer. But at the same time, yeah, I mean, we're all going to die. So I, I kind of, maybe it does kind of desensitize me to spend so much time around death. Like you're saying, where it's just like, "it's just a fact of life," you know, all these people came and all these people went.

You know Slaughterhouse-Five?

Mm-mm [saying "no"].

It's by Kurt Vonnegut. It's a novel where… um… it's kind of a weird historical sci-fi, but after someone is mentioned to have died, the expression, "so it goes," is placed after the sentence. So it makes me just [laughter]… and there's a sense of detachment and desensitization to it. It's like, "oh yeah, that guy was brutally murdered. So it goes." [Laughter]

Yeah.

So it makes me think of you saying like, "oh yeah, so it goes [cavalier tone]."

Yeah. I mean, it's not an easy concept. I don't want to make light to it, you know? And when your family members pass away, it's absolutely devastating.

Yeah.

And so, it's not like, "oh, well they came and they went and now they're gone [cavalier tone]." You know, it's not light like that. But I think to spend your life feeling a lot of fear around death is not worth it, you know? And so that's what I'm trying to communicate.

Right, yeah. Not that we're to be cavalier…

Mhmm [in agreement].

… but that we shouldn't overly dramatize it.

Mhmm [in agreement].

That makes sense. Would you say people have objection to rehearsing their own deaths out of discomfort? Insecurity? Like some people who… like even my grandparents, when they were reaching their sixties or so, my dad had to kind of push them and be like, "you know, you ought to have a will," not in any way of trying to profit off of that, if you know what I mean, but in a sense of, "you need to prepare."

Mhmm [in agreement].

I guess that kind of makes people uncomfortable though. I mean, in a way, going to the cemetery sort of feels like rehearsing death. Would you say? For most people, they only go to either bury someone or to visit someone that they know that was buried there, I suppose.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's like rehearsing death or like trying to get close to it or anything like that. I don't feel that way.

Does it feel more like a celebration of life?

Yeah, for sure.

Okay.

I think it feels peaceful. I mean, like I said, it depends on the cemetery you go to, because some of them are just spookier or give you a different feeling in your stomach. But I think that they can be really beautiful, very peaceful, very historical and significant. Like, I don't really love Oakland because that feels a little spooky to me.

Hmm.

You ever been there?

No.

It's the one that's like in downtown Atlanta. It's super historic.

Are there a lot of civil war soldiers buried there?

There's a lot of unmarked slave graves. And then there's a lot of huge, huge… I don't want to say monoliths… but like big statues. And it's very gothic, and it's very, very old. I think there's graves from the 1500s there. It borders Grand Park and downtown Atlanta, and I used to live right next to it, and I only went there a few times.

It just… it's not my favorite, but so yeah, anyways, it depends which ones, and some of them feel more like celebration and some of them don't, you know? 👊

Jenna Haines is a seamstress and fashion designer based out of Atlanta. You can find her work at jennahaines.com.