A Conversation About Cemeteries, Death, and the Viability of Cemeteries as a Third Place: Part 3

The interview below is part three of a conversation with my friend, Jenna Haines. This article covers the "viability of cemeteries as a third place" portion of our discussion. (Check out parts one and two if you haven't already!)

Let's shift gears now to the context of a cemetery being a third place. So in the book, "The Great Good Place," which is where Ray Oldenburg coined the term ["third place"], he mentions that "the first and most important function of a third place is that of uniting the neighborhood." And of course, in a more philosophical sense, death unites us all. 

Mhmm.

So there's that. And then it lists out eight different traits that qualify a third place. And it looks like for some of them, it definitely ticks. I mean, the first one being "on neutral ground"…

Mhmm.

… so people can come and go as they please, no one is required to play host, and a setting in which I'll feel comfortable and welcome.

Mhmm.

And it sounds like you've agreed with that one.

Yeah, I would. Yeah.

The next one being a third place is a lever—inclusive place "accessible to the general public and does not set formal criteria of membership and exclusion"…

Mhmm.

… which also goes… you also mentioned one doesn't need to be of a certain socioeconomic status to stroll through the cemetery. And that's always a funny thing as well. We die—we can't take anything with us, so we all have the same net worth when we're in the grave.

Mhmm.

Like, it's interesting that you pointed out socioeconomic status as a comparative demographic.

Mhmm. Yeah, I mean, like anyone can go… you know? And you're just amongst everyone. You know what I mean?

Yeah, for sure. The third one is conversation is the main activity. This one, I guess, is where it could kind of go either way, depending on if you're there with other people or not.

Yeah, I would probably say "no" [laughter]. I don't talk to people there. I tend to think that people are there either like me trying to get alone time, because there's a lot of people that are walking their dogs. That's like the number one thing I see at the cemeteries.

I see other runners… because at first when I first started going, I was like, "is this disrespectful to be running in a cemetery?" But I see a lot of other people do it too. So I think it's seen as like a public park in a way.

But yeah, so there's people with their headphones in mostly or people visiting graves, of course, you don't want to talk to them. And if I ever see a burial happening, I just completely avoid that section because if I was at a funeral, I don't think that I would want to see someone like running and having like a completely normal day when my life feels like it's falling apart, you know? So I try to just completely give them their space so that they can, you know… I can respect them. But yeah, there's not much social interaction unless you're going there with your friend, you know, but I wouldn't call it a conversational place.

Yeah. Even in some cultures, like I remember one time my sister and I were in the car with her friend and her mom—they're Korean. And we're talking in the car, and then as we start to cross a cemetery, like driving by a cemetery, the Korean friend and mom immediately stopped talking. And I remember my sister and I kind of looked at each other, and we stayed silent. And then right after we passed the cemetery, they picked up talking again.

And my sister and I thought, "oh, that's interesting." We've never experienced that sense of not talking… I suppose, in the same sense of a moment of silence. And so we picked it up after that. We would stop talking as our mom drives us to school, and then we'd pick up talking afterward. So in a way, I guess, depending on culture and people's social etiquette, it may also come across as… rude?

Mhmm.

The next one is accessibility and accommodation. And in the book, it says "third places that render the best and fullest service are those to which one may go alone at almost any time of the day or evening with assurance that acquaintances will be there." They need to have open hours that accommodate people when they are released from their responsibilities elsewhere, home, work, school. And I mean, of course, nighttime is pretty common for third places (like bars).

Mhmm.

And I guess people may get the wrong idea of going to a cemetery at nighttime.

Yeah, I kind of think that's when it becomes disrespectful, because generally people are going there for the purpose of it being spooky and whether they're trying to get into something that's not appropriate, you know, where they'll have privacy, like drinking or something. It's just that kind of feels disrespectful. So I wouldn't think that it's very accessible at nighttime.

Yeah, makes sense. The next item is "the regulars." Of course, like you said, there are people walking their dogs and running.

Mhmm.

So there may be some regulars, but you're not necessarily socializing with them, so it doesn't really have the same weight to it, I suppose?

Yeah, pretty much. And I don't tend to recognize anyone, you know, time after time, but I'm not really studying their features either. So it could be similar people that are coming back.

Yeah, that makes sense. So you've never tried to strike up a conversation with someone there, have you?

Mm-mm [saying "no"].

Next item is "a low profile." So in the book, it says "unimpressive looking for the most part... they are not elegant," which I think actually works very well for cemeteries, like very low profile. You even said in your comments to me, "not snobby" [both laughing]. And so I thought that was eloquently put.

[Laughter] Thank you. [Laughter] I'm a straight-shooter, John.

I appreciate that. [Both laughing] The next one we have is "the mood is playful." This is where I guess there may be some deviation. I mean, you said it's a joyous experience—there's a celebration of life, but I guess that's also a matter of perception.

Yeah, I don't think that the word "playful" is the right one. I wouldn't say that it's playful at all because while you can still enjoy your time at a cemetery, it's not lighthearted. I mean, it's a serious place, and it's one that you should be respectful. Of course, you should not be stepping on any graves or anything like that. These cemeteries I go to have very wide paved paths that cars drive on. So, you know, you're not encroaching on anyone's memorial sites or anything like that.

But yeah, it's not a place to have a party or have cocktails with your friends. However, Crestlawn is apparently the spot to be to see 4th of July fireworks in Atlanta. So lots of people go to Crestlawn. I mean, it's a huge gathering site because it's like one of the tallest points in Atlanta. Like there's this crazy, amazing skyline view of Atlanta and Buckhead when you get to the top of Crestlawn. So I've never been there on 4th of July, so I'm not really sure what the vibe is then. It might be a little more playful, but I don't know.

I mean, when I was in San Francisco last time with my folks,  my parents and I visited my grandparents' grave. And of course, that was sad for us. That was our first time going to their grave since they passed away.

But not too far away from us, there was a whole family with lawn chairs, and they were playing music. And I couldn't tell if they were Hispanic or… it seems something Latin-focused.

Mhmm.

I mean, we weren't there around Day of the Dead or anything like that, but it was interesting to see that they were playing music and barbecuing, and it was sort of like celebrating time with, you know, a loved one from the past. I guess almost in a way where if someone passes away, then, you know, the following Thanksgiving or Christmas, they may still put out a plate and a fork and, you know, have that on the table as like, "oh, they're still with us" sort of thing. 

Mhmm.

So it's interesting to just see those differences sometimes of like how much it can vary from culture to culture.

Yeah, I think culturally, like, I know that… I guess Americans, but specifically white Americans, don't… like we're very quiet about death. Like we don't know how to talk to someone who is grieving. We don't know what to say. We want to just leave them alone when really they probably need community most at that time, you know? And it's just… we're not… we're just not good at it. But other cultures are very celebratory.

But I don't know how I feel about that, about people having like a whole barbecue kind of thing at the cemetery when, of course, there are going to be other people there that are like very tearful. 

Yeah.

So in a way that might be nice for you if you're really sad to feel like, "OK, there are people here that are celebrating the life of their loved one, and I can get to that place eventually maybe." But it could also be like pretty disrespectful of like, "I'm trying to come here to have quiet time with my loved one," you know, so I don't really know.

Yeah.

How did you feel about that?

I was mostly… I didn't feel at all like offended or insulted. It was more out of intrigue like, "I've never seen that before. I never would have expected it." And it sort of just made me curious more than anything. 

Mhmm.

I could definitely see how someone would be a little bit vexed about it.

Mhmm.

Yeah. But I didn't feel at all like put off. Yeah.

Okay, that's good.

Yeah. So the last item is "a home away from home," which I'm sure there's double meaning there as well.

Yeah, really.

And it mentions "one suspects that it is the similarity that a third place bears to a comfortable home and not its differences that poses the greater threat. Aye, there's the rub—the third place is often more homelike than home." And I think that kind of goes into, you know, a really worn out sofa at the coffee shop.

Mhmm.

And, you know, it's not very "clean slate." It may not be the dentist's office, you know?

Mhmm.

In a way, I guess there's some similarity with people's backyards, maybe? But besides that, do you have really any comment on whether there's some similarity with a home away from home?

I mean, I guess, like you said, I mean, it can have lots of meanings. For somebody whose loved one has died, that person could have been their home, you know? And so, then to go and visit them feels like going home, you know, for someone who frequents the cemetery so often, it could feel very familiar. But I don't really think it's applicable in the way that this author means it to be.

Yeah. That's very fair. So if we total it up, we get three of eight [laughter], which is certainly below average, I suppose. [Both laughing]

Yeah. I think… yeah, I guess so. I mean, I think a lot of them could work, but it's a stretch, you know? [Laughter]

Yeah.

And I think I'm also kind of… unusual in my cemetery visiting [laughter]. So, I don't think a cemetery is a third place for really anyone but possibly me.

So overall, the good things are it's free, accessible, local, inclusive, doesn't really require or have an expectation of how much time is spent.

Mhmm.

And it can facilitate the "noblest of third place functions… bringing youth and adults together."

Mhmm.

The problems… [both laughing] it doesn't facilitate a spontaneous, repeated social interaction; it's always outdoors, which could be problematic because of weather; it's often visited by those in mourning and participating in burials…

Mhmm.

… not necessarily the most inherently uplifting place; little seating, besides, obviously, the ground; no restrooms, most likely. No guarantee of having trash cans; littering could be a problem. It also seems like the lack of background noise could be problematic because a lot of third places have background—whether it's music playing in the background or even just a lot of people socializing, and that kind of mixes with the ambiance.

Mhmm.

It doesn't act as a staging area where people can find it necessary to help themselves as much as or more than they are helped by municipal agencies. So it's like… if there's a severe storm or severe crises, like people are not going to huddle there…

Mhmm.

… or people aren't going to go there to have their "let me tell you my life story" therapy session next to the person at the bar.

Right.

They're not going to have that there. Doesn't have public figures. 

Mhmm.

Doesn't necessarily serve the elderly well, which [laughter]…

Yeah [laughter].

… some slight irony there. But it mentions in the book that for third places, that's pretty significant because a lot of folks that are retired will meet up there at times when kids are in school, people are at work. And so that dead time is often filled with meetups for the elderly.

Mhmm.

And that also helps third places thrive and function as well. That's not to say that you necessarily enjoy visiting the cemetery because you're young [laughter], but I mean, I certainly think it makes it a little bit easier.

Yeah, probably. Yeah. I think if I was really old, I would maybe feel a little less… excited by it [laughter]. Might be a little too close to home at that point.

So maybe it'll erode over time.

Yeah, maybe. Have you—this is a change of subject—but have you seen Gilmore Girls ever? [Both laughing] Like with your sister or anything?

No.

Oh my gosh. So I think that there's a diner in that show. I think that's like the perfect definition of a third place because that's where the whole town goes to have their coffee or whatever. And everyone knows each other, and they run into each other, and they have meetings there and all kinds of things. So I just thought that was interesting.

Yeah, it seems like so many TV shows have that motif, like Friends—it's the coffee shop. Seinfeld—it's the diner restaurant. Big Bang Theory—it's the cafeteria at the place they work. Or, I guess, the comic book store. And it's sort of ironic because a lot of these are American. 

Mhmm.

Of course, New York makes it a lot easier since it's a walkable city. But is Gilmore Girls American?

Mhmm. I think Connecticut is where it's set.

And it's a walkable setting?

Mhmm.

Yeah.

Small town.

I've heard something recently where people who reflect on their college years think very fondly of it. And one of the contributing factors is that it's really, for some people, the only time in their lives in America where they get the feeling of being in a walkable city. And for that reason, they can walk from their dorm to the food hall, go to classes, work, or the library, go to the recreational center. And all throughout, you're going to pass by people you know. And you can strike up small conversations. You can have your meetup spots at the cafeteria. And so it's like all these mini third places inside of a "walkable city" for a few years.

Mhmm.

And then you have to move on.

Yeah, that's interesting.

You mentioned that one of the components that is in favor of the cemetery is that individuals can gain spiritual regeneration. However, I'm unsure of whether this is really necessary for third places or if it's just good for us in a therapeutic, self-help sort of way.

Yeah, I mean, I guess the third place really does give you a type of spiritual regeneration, whether that's because you're surrounded by community or it's a familiar place that feels like home, you know? And so maybe that's what I was trying to draw the parallel to is that it has that same sort of je ne sais quoi that a third place has in that way.

Yeah, makes sense. One thing I mentioned in the book is that third places "dominate the image of the city." So speaking of je ne sais quoi, sidewalk cafes in Paris, the forum of classic Rome, pubs in London, piazzas in Florence, beer gardens in Germany, tea house in Japan, etc. In a way, it's almost kind of a dig or like twisting the knife [laughing] to say like, "oh, you know, cemeteries in America is our third place." Because I mean, when people think of America, a lot of times it's informed by school shootings, poor health care system…

Mhmm.

… over-bloated funding towards the military, unnecessary wars [laughing]. So just, you know, to put that mental image into people like, "hey, we're not only living amongst death in that way." It's like there's a direct parallel with us hanging out at a cemetery. I think that kind of portrays it poorly as well.

Mmm. I can see that, yeah.

Yeah, and to that point, I mean, you also said that you have conversation with self there. "It's the best place for that. It's not always lighthearted, but it is the main activity."

Mhmm. For me, it is. Yeah.

Yeah. So I suppose even if the cemetery isn't the best place for socializing with others, it's possibly the best for self-reflection, discovery, understanding.

Mhmm. For me, yeah. Just because it's like one of the only places you'll be that you're unbothered by other people, you know, that nobody really needs you. Nobody's going to… I mean, you can just leave your phone in the car and then you're completely unbothered. You know what I mean? Nobody's going to talk to you because everyone has social awareness. So you can kind of just sit there and really have a moment to yourself.

Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to share?

Mmmm [thinking]… I don't really think so. I think that I will not be frequenting cemeteries as much now that I don't live in the city. I think that it was a point of respite for me because I needed to get away from the commotion, and because of that, it's like the peak peaceful place to go, you know, depending on the specific cemetery you're going to.

I think it's pretty personal, too. And it was never a thing that I went to to engage in any like spooky stuff, you know, like trying to communicate with the dead [chuckling] or anything like that. So, yeah. But no, I don't really think there's much else I need to share.

Yeah. It's sort of ironic in a way that the more… I would probably guess that cities have more third places than suburbs/rural areas. I mean, even the coffee shop that I meet up with friends near me, if I were to drive, it's within 10 minutes, eight minutes or so. But to walk, it's an hour and 10 minutes.

Mhmm.

And so that frequent, like spontaneous "oh, I'm just going to walk over down the street to the coffee shop" doesn't exist really in the suburbs, nor does it really, I suppose, in rural areas. But… unless you live in like a small main street in a rural area…

Mhmm.

… everyone knows everyone [chuckling]. It's that sort of thing. But it's kind of ironic that cities have probably more third places, but then because of all the commotion, there's a greater need for the cemetery as well. But if you go somewhere where it's more rural, you have fewer third places, but then you also have less need for the cemetery.

Right. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, I think that the cemetery is not an example of a third place, especially to advocate for that to the general public is not going to be… it's not going to go over well. But I think that it, in a way, kind of was for me. But I guess… I don't know… I guess not by his parameters. So maybe not really [laughter], maybe not really a third place.

But I feel like now I have more… now that I live in the suburbs, I have more places that I can go that I can kind of get a similar reward out of, you know, like, I can go to a coffee shop and put my headphones in and be pretty unbothered. And I don't have, you know, I can kind of have the same sort of feelings, even though you're surrounded by people and it's not like peaceful in that way. And because the whole surrounding area is so… there's so much less commotion, then there's not as much need to seek out a cemetery. And I have way more running routes, which was kind of the number one reason why I was going there in the first place.

Do you miss the cemetery from time to time?

Mmmm… I don't think I miss the cemetery. I miss what it stood for in my life.

Yeah.

Because I don't do as much like just "sit down and write" or "sit down and sketch." Like, that's just… I don't really do that anymore. And so, yeah, I think I miss more what it meant for me, like from a self-reflection standpoint and less of like the actual setting.

And of that tradeoff of having more third places, but to get away from everything, you'd want to go to the cemetery and not having as many third places, but you don't have to go to the cemetery, it sounds like you favor the latter more. Would that be right?

Which one was the latter again?

Not having as many third places, but you also don't have to or you don't feel as compelled to go to the cemetery as frequently because you don't have to get away from the hubbub.

Yeah, probably. I don't know. I kind of go back and forth on whether I like living in the city better or would prefer to live in like the country kind of thing. So I'm not really sure about that. But yeah, I don't know how to answer your question, honestly, because I'm pretty adaptable. So I think I could just… it could go either way. And luckily, because I had the option to go to different cemeteries I could kind of have both at once.

Yeah. Cool. Um. Awesome. Well, that's all the questions that I have, and it sounds like you got everything off your chest that you wanted to?

I will say that it's interesting because my mom had several open heart surgeries, and her last one that she had did not go very well, and she almost did not make it. It was very, very… it was a lot. And she is convinced, I mean, she technically died for like a couple of minutes, I think? And they were able to bring her back, and my mom has this crazy story of how she saw her two grandmothers, and they were on this beautiful path, and it was like this long path with trees overhead, and it was that time of day where the sunlight is filtering through the trees and making all those patterns on the ground from going between the leaves, you know?

And they were standing at the end of the path, and they were talking. My mom was very close to her grandmothers, and they were just… the two of them were talking to each other. My mom caught up to them on the path, and they said, "we can't talk to you right now," and she was so offended because she's the youngest in her family, and she always felt like she couldn't hang out with the adults because she was a kid, you know? And so she was like, "no, I want to talk to you guys," and they were like, "we don't want to talk to you right now," and then she came back, and she has a similar kind of viewpoint to me with death now that she's gone through that—to where she's not afraid at all because she had that memory of how beautiful it was, how the path was so beautiful, how she got to see her grandmothers who she loved so much. And she thinks that they just didn't want to talk to her because it wasn't her time to go, and so they didn't want her to stick around, you know? 

Anyways, I took her to the cemetery in Decatur, and it has this long path, and I took her in at golden hours, so the light was filtering through, and she was like, "this is literally what I saw when I had that memory," so I thought that was interesting. But she doesn't feel uncomfortable in cemeteries either. In fact, she enjoys them like I do, and so I wonder if it has some sort of parallel with the fact that we kind of went through a harrowing experience with death, and so now, we're just kind of less affected by it.

Wow. Well, I'm sorry to hear that your mom had heart complications, and I'm glad that she's okay now.

Thank you. Yeah, me too.

Well… I don't think there's any better ending than that [both laughing].

Yeah maybe [both laughing]. 👊

Jenna Haines is a seamstress and fashion designer based out of Atlanta. You can find her work at jennahaines.com.